I Don't Want to Say It if It Isn't So

Well, apparently the folk at Slice don't mind letting people respond to me, and since I can't respond on their server (without pulling some neato tricks with my IP, etc.) I'll post my reply up here.

This comes from a post in which I defend U2 and specifically Bono as a Christian. The slice people don't seem to believe it is possible, and have labeled him "a blasphemous reprobate." Probably because there's drums in his music or some other equally logical, biblical reason.

"Mr. Pitman,
You bill yourself as a tremendously intelligent person--in fact, you rather beat some of us over the head with it in commenting to a different post--and yet it appears that you're not quite clear on the notion of making sure of what a person believes before defending him as a Christian.
Do you recall Bono's little debacle called, "Jesus, Jew, Mohammed, it's all true"?
No Christian (who believes in the Deity of Christ, by definition) would say that Jesus' teachings are compatible with the self-serving and undereducated rantings of a known con artist (Mohammed) who went so far as to say that He was only a prophet and didn't die on the cross!
And here's a little tidbit from Jesus' own mouth:
"Not every one that saith unto Me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of Heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven." Matt. 7:22
Apparently, just being "someone who openly claims Christianity" is not enough.
Just to clarify. Maybe a little sharp, but name-dropping always gets on my last nerve.
Posted by: Faithful at December 10, 2006 12:10 PM"

First of all, the post to which she is referring where I "beat some of them over the head with my intelligence" was probably the post about sending your kids to college, etc. They finally posted it up, but curiously, not the addendum to that comment where I went further into my position. So on a post about college, I wrote my educational background...guess that mean's I'm throwing my intelligence in their faces. Does it also hold then that all of the people who have written about when they were in seminary are throwing their spiritual clout in the face of everyone who reads? I haven't taken it that way, but whatever. I'm not going to argue too much about a comment made in hopes of getting me off-base. If you're intimidated by the use of multi-syllabic words then I wouldn't expect you to really be able to fully digest rhetoric anyway. Maybe I'm wasting my time.

Okay...I'm not clear on making sure what a person believes before I defend them as a Christian? Um, all right lady, ignoring the fact that I've actually met and spoken with Bono on the subject of his faith, I'll humour you by entering this.

"Jesus, Jew, Mohammed, it's all true."

I guess I'm supposed to be shocked by this, and renounce my claims of Bono's faith. Except, I'm not an idiot, and I do remember this debacle. First of all, that is a quote that was supplied by someone who was a concertgoer; not an interviewer, not a video, some fan who was out in the middle of the vast crowd at a rock concert. Not to mention the fact that the quote was then disputed by numerous other fans that said that the quote is incomplete. The claim to have heard, "Jesus, Jew, Mohammed, its all true-all sons of Abraham." Which even you cannot deny is true...remember the Isaac and Ishmael "debacle?"
(By the way, here's an article from a Christian magazine about that very incident, and even they admit that the claim is shaky.
http://www.relevantmagazine.com/pc_article.php?id=7089 )

Any more quotes you want to throw at me? I'm ready...ready for the laughing gas...

"No Christian (who believes in the Deity of Christ, by definition) would say that Jesus' teachings are compatible with the self-serving and undereducated rantings of a known con artist (Mohammed) who went so far as to say that He was only a prophet and didn't die on the cross!"

You're wrong. Take away all theology from the teachings of both Muhammad and Jesus. I think you'll be surprised at how similar their lifestyle admonitions are. I take it you probably haven't read the Koran, but I've spent a decent amount of time studying it, and I can tell you, philosophically, Buddhism, Islam, and Christianity aren't that far off. I know you're going to want to take this out of context, so I'll clarify: If Buddha, Mohammed, and Jesus existed in a theology free bubble and were discussing how they have taught people to live, there would be far more similarities than differences. I know that that's not how it is, but you could choose to read the Buddhist and Islamic philosophers and probably gain a lot of wisdom, as long as you were very discerning.

Mathew 25:40 "The King will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me.'

Matthew 21: "23 Now when He came into the temple, the chief priests and the elders of the people confronted Him as He was teaching, and said, “By what authority are You doing these things? And who gave You this authority?”
24 But Jesus answered and said to them, “I also will ask you one thing, which if you tell Me, I likewise will tell you by what authority I do these things: 25 The baptism of John—where was it from? From heaven or from men?”
And they reasoned among themselves, saying, “If we say, ‘From heaven,’ He will say to us, ‘Why then did you not believe him?’ 26 But if we say, ‘From men,’ we fear the multitude, for all count John as a prophet.” 27 So they answered Jesus and said, “We do not know.”
And He said to them, “Neither will I tell you by what authority I do these things."

From the Koran"
5.32 For this reason did We prescribe to the children of Israel that whoever slays a soul, unless it be for manslaughter or for mischief in the land, it is as though he slew all men; and whoever keeps it alive, it is as though he kept alive all men; and certainly Our apostles came to them with clear arguments, but even after that many of them certainly act extravagantly in the land.

Also, what are comments like "self-serving and undereducated rantings" doing in your post? What's your point? Jesus wasn't highly educated either: He was a carpenter who sought out teaching in the temple, while Mohammed was a shepherd who taught himself to read and write as a trading merchant. His writing was also hardly what you'd call self-serving. Most of it serves to promote a religion other than Christianity, but not himself. This is where I really get upset...what does that completely off-base comment add to your argument? Ardour? Why not just say a cuss word...like FUCK...at least then you're not making false assertions.

"Apparently, just being "someone who openly claims Christianity" is not enough."

Kindly allow me to present to you a few verses:

II Corinthians 4 " 1 Therefore, since we have this ministry, as we have received mercy, we do not lose heart. 2 But we have renounced the hidden things of shame, not walking in craftiness nor handling the word of God deceitfully, but by manifestation of the truth commending ourselves to every man’s conscience in the sight of God."

"13 And since we have the same spirit of faith, according to what is written, “I believed and therefore I spoke, “we also believe and therefore speak, 14 knowing that He who raised up the Lord Jesus will also raise us up with Jesus, and will present us with you. 15 For all things are for your sakes, that grace, having spread through the many, may cause thanksgiving to abound to the glory of God."

Wouldn't you say that that's a fairly good praise of someone with the public presence of a guy like Bono? He's pretty much placed himself before the conscience of every man, wouldn't you say?

I'm still not seeing what it is that makes this man so evil to you all, and why you believe so strongly that he cannot be a follower of Christ.

Next time you're going to quote someone to me (or anyone, for that matter), make sure that its a little more substantive than that. Thanks.

-Spencer-

P.S. I find myself supremely amused at the "tact" employed by many of the people over there. I've been called "Friend," "Spence," "Man," and now the honorific "Mr. Pitman."